BTW vs Forge. Blah blah blah blah blah.

[Prototype]

To be proverbial:

Just because you hate the painter, doesn't mean you have to hate the painting (and vice versa)

Or to phrase that better:

A mod and its maker can be two different things.



That's what I'm getting out of this argument, and seeing as I can put it so simply, means its a good argument.

[fr0stbyte124]

Forge isn't evil because the project leader is a jerk, although he certainly is. Forge is evil because they steal mods, not in the same way as Tekkit but every bit as wrongly.

Is this still about modloader or is this something else? Risugami doesn't have any sort of sacred right to that functionality. If Forge mods stop working on account of Modloader don't respecting the format, then the Forge team is obligated to find a solution, even if it involves stepping on some heels. Risugami didn't provide a workaround, so they did. I don't see how that makes them evil.

[҉]

Forge isn't evil because the project leader is a jerk, although he certainly is. Forge is evil because they steal mods, not in the same way as Tekkit but every bit as wrongly.

Is this still about modloader or is this something else? Risugami doesn't have any sort of sacred right to that functionality. If Forge mods stop working on account of Modloader don't respecting the format, then the Forge team is obligated to find a solution, even if it involves stepping on some heels. He didn't provide a workaround so they did. I don't see how that makes them evil.

It's more about the other examples that I posted, especially Better With Forge, but FML is certainly a part of it. It's OK for Forge to take that functionality--it's not OK for them to advertise it in Risugami's thread as a superior alternative and reply to bug reports about Modloader by telling the person to switch to FML because it works so much better. They've also several times come down very hard on mod authors who chose not to use Forge, and as in the case of BWF and the ExtraBiomes thing they've made serious attempts to kill mods whose authors don't agree with them.

[Prototype]

This sounds like normal competing businesses, apparently this is considered acceptable, unless somebody is getting sued over it.
Not that I know much about business, but I do know about competition, and I know the lengths some people will go to (or sink to) to get their way.

Shame really, but that's life

Man I'm getting depressed, time to watch nyan cat.

[҉]

This sounds like normal competing businesses, apparently this is considered acceptable, unless somebody is getting sued over it.
Not that I know much about business, but I do know about competition, and I know the lengths some people will go to (or sink to) to get their way.

Shame really, but that's life

Man I'm getting depressed, time to watch nyan cat.

And that, I think, is really the core of what's wrong with some of those people. They view Minecraft modding as a competition. That's entirely the wrong viewpoint to start from, and it's when you think of it like that that you start to get stuff like Better With Forge and pressuring modders to use your API.

EDIT: Moving this to Member's Lounge. We're pretty off-topic. It's a useful discussion, at least somewhat, but probably not one for the Development area.

[fr0stbyte124]

Just going off of your own words, it sounds like the BWF thing is just a petty squabble between developers who don't like each other. I don't see it being done by the Forge team in any official capacity, even if LexManos endorses it or even if he wrote it.

If people are asking why their forge mods don't work with RML, it doesn't make sense to avoid talking about the Forge version. And if has all of RML's functionality but also lets your mods work with Forge, then I am pretty sure that makes it superior.

No idea what ExtraBiomes is, but I think I've probably been told before. Anyway, I just don't think this situation is quite as diabolical as you are making it out to be. There is some childish fighting between some devs, but that doesn't reflect on their work. Forge's goal is to make every mod work with every other mod to the best of their ability, so of course they want everyone to have a Forge compatible version.

It's no different than any other technology. Standards change as technology improves, and the market itself decides which one becomes the norm. Like IE6 ignoring the W3C standards and being surprised when the market sided against them. If you fail to adapt, you don't get shoved under the bus, you just get left behind, and it is nobody's fault but your own. Every developer should know this.

[҉]

Just going off of your own words, it sounds like the BWF thing is just a petty squabble between developers who don't like each other. I don't see it being done by the Forge team in any official capacity, even if LexManos endorses it or even if he wrote it.

Of course not. Officially, no-one's doing anything over there. But what's the difference between BWF being supported by the Forge team and it being an official Forge project? They like it. LexManos is far from the only Forge dev to support it and appear in the original livestream. And it is a squabble between developers who don't like each other. But it's not an isolated incident (although it is the only so far that's gone that far). It's indicative of their policies as a whole, and they've demonstrated that attitude in enough places for it to be pretty bloody convincing.

If people are asking why their forge mods don't work with RML, it doesn't make sense to avoid talking about the Forge version. And if has all of RML's functionality but also lets your mods work with Forge, then I am pretty sure that makes it superior.

That's not what they're asking. People ask something like 'How do I install mods using Modloader?' and they reply 'It's hard. Forge Modloader is easier, use it instead'. That's one of the nicer examples, really--like I said, this got to the point where the MCF moderators stopped it, and it takes a lot for them to intervene.

No idea what ExtraBiomes is, but I think I've probably been told before. Anyway, I just don't think this situation is quite as diabolical as you are making it out to be. There is some childish fighting between some devs, but that doesn't reflect on their work. Forge's goal is to make every mod work with every other mod to the best of their ability, so of course they want everyone to have a Forge compatible version.

FlowerChild was on of the founding members of Forge, you know. Its original goal was to provide a good, simple API to help modders. FlowerChild left when it started to become what it is today. Their goal is not to make every mod work together, or at least that's not their primary goal. Their primary goal is to make every mod use Forge. And that's not right.

It's no different than any other technology. Standards change as technology improves, and the market itself decides which one becomes the norm. Like IE6 ignoring the W3C standards and being surprised when the market sided against them. If you fail to adapt, you don't get shoved under the bus, you just get left behind, and it is nobody's fault but your own. Every developer should know this.

Now imagine W3C sending thugs with bats to force IE6 to adopt their standards. That's a bit more extreme than what we're seeing here, but it's a matter of degree, not of kind. The Forge people aren't saying 'Well, our API is the best, and anyone who doesn't use it is obsolete.' They're saying 'Our API is the best, and anyone who doesn't use it is an enemy. Go troll their threads until they use it.*' Thomas Edison did that, you know. His film company was known for literally sending people to beat up people from competing companies. Hollywood is on the West Coast because Edison was on the East Coast, and he destroyed (literally) all the competition near him. As a result of that, I have absolutely no respect for Mr. Thomas Alva Edison. (He also publicly electrocuted cats and dogs using alternating current because his competitors used alternating current and he used direct current, but that's another (though related) matter). There shouldn't be a 'market', there shouldn't be 'competition', and there sure as hell shouldn't be a monopoly--These are mods. For a game. That people make for fun. Anyone who's concerned about competition in this context needs a good whack with a two-by-four.


*LexManos has actually said that, in almost exactly those words.

[TinkerPox]

Just going off of your own words, it sounds like the BWF thing is just a petty squabble between developers who don't like each other. I don't see it being done by the Forge team in any official capacity, even if LexManos endorses it or even if he wrote it.

Of course not. Officially, no-one's doing anything over there. But what's the difference between BWF being supported by the Forge team and it being an official Forge project? They like it. LexManos is far from the only Forge dev to support it and appear in the original livestream. And it is a squabble between developers who don't like each other. But it's not an isolated incident (although it is the only so far that's gone that far). It's indicative of their policies as a whole, and they've demonstrated that attitude in enough places for it to be pretty bloody convincing.

If people are asking why their forge mods don't work with RML, it doesn't make sense to avoid talking about the Forge version. And if has all of RML's functionality but also lets your mods work with Forge, then I am pretty sure that makes it superior.

That's not what they're asking. People ask something like 'How do I install mods using Modloader?' and they reply 'It's hard. Forge Modloader is easier, use it instead'. That's one of the nicer examples, really--like I said, this got to the point where the MCF moderators stopped it, and it takes a lot for them to intervene.

No idea what ExtraBiomes is, but I think I've probably been told before. Anyway, I just don't think this situation is quite as diabolical as you are making it out to be. There is some childish fighting between some devs, but that doesn't reflect on their work. Forge's goal is to make every mod work with every other mod to the best of their ability, so of course they want everyone to have a Forge compatible version.

FlowerChild was on of the founding members of Forge, you know. Its original goal was to provide a good, simple API to help modders. FlowerChild left when it started to become what it is today. Their goal is not to make every mod work together, or at least that's not their primary goal. Their primary goal is to make every mod use Forge. And that's not right.

It's no different than any other technology. Standards change as technology improves, and the market itself decides which one becomes the norm. Like IE6 ignoring the W3C standards and being surprised when the market sided against them. If you fail to adapt, you don't get shoved under the bus, you just get left behind, and it is nobody's fault but your own. Ever developer should know this.

Now imagine W3C sending thugs with bats to force IE6 to adopt their standards. That's a bit more extreme than what we're seeing here, but it's a matter of degree, not of kind. The Forge people aren't saying 'Well, our API is the best, and anyone who doesn't use it is obsolete.' They're saying 'Our API is the best, and anyone who doesn't use it is an enemy. Go troll their threads until they use it.*' Thomas Edison did that, you know. His film company was known for literally sending people to beat up people from competing companies. Hollywood is on the West Coast because Edison was on the East Coast, and he destroyed (literally) all the competition near him. As a result of that, I have absolutely no respect for Mr. Thomas Alva Edison. (He also publicly electrocuted cats and dogs using alternating current because his competitors used alternating current and he used direct current, but that's another (though related) matter). There shouldn't be a 'market', there shouldn't be 'competition', and there sure as hell shouldn't be a monopoly--These are mods. For a game. That people make for fun. Anyone who's concerned about competition in this context needs a good whack with a two-by-four.


*LexManos has actually said that, in almost exactly those words.

*clap* *clap* Dang I don`t believe the forge DEVs did that....

[fr0stbyte124]

Now imagine W3C sending thugs with bats to force IE6 to adopt their standards.

Actually, if they did that, I am pertty sure most of the web development community would have cheered them on.

But yeah, I will admit I don't know the specifics of the situation. I've been doing my own thing for a pretty long time and I have no idea what the community has been up to, for the most part. It could be just as you say, and LexManos is overstepping his bounds. I know a few people in the Forge community, and I'll ask them about it later. But I still don't think Forge is wrong on principle.

Even if it is free and even if it is open source, there is always competition and there is always a market. Anytime two people have the same idea and come up with two solutions, there is competition. Futurecraft is going to create a ton of competition just from it's very nature. Physics craft, boats/ships, Mine Up, Cubic Chunks, Flan's, Optifine, and even the Forge mods, all have competing systems. We're on friendly terms with most of them, so I doubt anything comes of it, but the mere fact that Futurecraft is incompatible with all these things is going to divide the userbase.

But I don't think that is a bad thing. Futurecraft will be open-source and will provide new advancements and oportunities for modders if they wish to use it. Nobody will ever be required to use them, but their userbase may start pressuring them to do so, so that it can work with other Copernicus-based mods. Every developer with any experience in the field should be prepared for something like that, and either adapt to it or accept that there will be competition.

Holding a grudge over something like that is in poor taste.

[Keon]

Alright you guys. GTFO of my thread.

[fr0stbyte124]

Who the hell are you and what are you doing in the Forge thread?

[Keon]

That was before I split. Run free in the rage BTW thread.