Ukraine

[Iv121]

I dont get why you're so surprised, and more importantly why you're so concerned, you're not in Ukraine after all, or you're afraid of Russia itself ?

[Error]

Iv, the western world traditionally prefers *gasp* that every human be allowed to live well and freely under a democratic government.

This is why we'd prefer Russia stayed inside its own borders. Forgive me if this revelation rocks your beliefs of government to the core.

[Iv121]

Well you know I live in a Democratic state that actually got balls to protect it's ideology, when the Russians will roll into Ukraine the west will most likely just watch from the side, they're always like that - can only talk, don't have the balls to do the right thing. I hope for Ukraine's sake Im actually wrong this time ...

[Error]

Difference between having balls and being trigger happy, and I'm not sure which Israel is.

Also, nations tend to just watch because fighting is the absolute last resort ever. And yes, nonviolence works, because either Russia eases up or they have the entirety of the western world breathing down their collective necks about it.

[Iv121]

Oh rly ? Just like in Georgia, really that’s an argument you can't win - the west and especially the EU behave like a bunch of pussies, telling "Bad Russia ! Bad Russia !" collectively won't give you anything and if that’s not enough you can hardly pressure Russia to do anything anyway.

[Error]

So tell me, what's your solution, Iv? Shooting Russians?

[Iv121]

The solution is simple, Russia wants Ukraine, but not as much as to risk world physical intervention, meaning that if Russia knows the west is going to send troops to Ukraine if Russia sends troops to Ukraine it simply wont do it. You could easily achieve this with words previously when EU's words were actually worth something but considering how highly ppl regard EU's words nowadays you will need to work much harder, and yes that would also mean not to be afraid to get your hands dirty, that doesn't mean to go into an all out war BTW. On the bright side if the EU actually manages to do it (doesn't matter how) EU's word might end up worth something, useful for similar situations in the future.

[CMA]

Iv, the western world traditionally prefers *gasp* that every human be allowed to live well and freely under a democratic government.

This is why we'd prefer Russia stayed inside its own borders. Forgive me if this revelation rocks your beliefs of government to the core.

The 'human rights' crap in Russia is just that, crap. The big evil * law in question solely prohibits passing out sexual propaganda of any kind to minors, I think that's a pretty good law. Hell, I've talked to Russian homosexuals who don't care about it.

Also, Iv, what I'm worried about is Obama making good on his empty threats(I doubt it) and starting WW3, or continuing it, or whatever.

[Iv121]

There won't be WW3 on that crap, that is the problem with western mentality ... You should know how to limit yourself but you must not be afraid to get your hands dirty, remember that pacifism was one of the causes of WW2, they could easily end Hitler's regime the moment it started but instead the rest of Europe preferred to kiss Hitler's butt yet again to avoid war, the best example of that would be how the Europeans divided the Czech like a cake, basically sold it to Hitler.

In our case Russia is a strong opponent but that doesn't mean Putin wants to risk a war, if you let him know he is crossing a red line and convince him your words are actually worth something it would end up at that, if the west fails to do so then the result will be an actual war between Ukraine and Russia, a war Ukraine probably wont win and as a result Ukraine will be most likely divided in two, the western part will become a "sovereign state" officially and part of Russia de-facto.

[Error]

You comparison is flawed, Iv. Everyone ignored Hitler because nobody wanted the hundred of thousands of deaths WW1 created, repeated.

Also, how (exactly, in detail) do you convinve this guy you refer to as a dictator that your words aren't empty threats? Plus, if Russia all-out invades Ukraine, Ukraine could simply ask for help, and provided they do things according to the EU / NATO's requirements (which they do), there'd be a huge pile of European militaries in the Ukraine right quick. Possibly even Commonwealth militaries.

You'll note that the rebels in Libta requested assistance, and got it. This could be comparable - a revolution against a dictator.

[Iv121]

The comparison is pretty valid, not the same scale but works similarly, hundreds of thousands and probably much less instead of dozens of millions. Also if EU was really ready to provide troops Russia wouldn't invade in the first place, see ? It all revolves around it, as EU currently stands I just don't see a single soldier crossing over to Ukraine, that is the exact same feeling Putin got, not only that but he is teasing you, testing your limit, how far are you ready to go, and you are telling him "its alright Putin you can keep going deeper".

Another interesting fact that I start noticing now is that the Hitler comparison might not be as far as you think, I must admit that when I was told this comparison at first I dismissed it as going too far but now I realize that Putin does exactly what Hitler did. Hitler also slowly invaded and took small pieces of land around Germany, each time going further and further, just like Putin, testing the European patience, but the Europeans were almost fully giving him green light, yes they complained, yes they didn’t like it, and yet it was all just words, it might have been really different if lets say the French told Hitler proper no when he took control over the Rainland in 1936, back then he still had no military at all. Putin might not have the motivation to control the whole world like Hitler and perhaps he’s not as strong of a leader, but that wont stop him from conquering lands around him at first opportunity, perhaps like a miniature version of Hitler pre mid WW2.

[Error]

You're seeming very pro-violence.

[Iv121]

Not Pro-Violence, just ready to get my hands dirty, because this way you keep the violence away (ironically), those talks and stuff are going to bring to war in Ukraine while demonstrating a strict and perhaps even forceful position will keep the Russians at bay, meaning no violence, for some reason the more "violent" approach actually yells the most peaceful results. On a bright note it seems like the US is moving in the right direction, I wonder if the Russians are buying it currently.

[ACH0225]

I think Putin might go for it if he could tie the US' hands and then have a crushing, morale-breaking victory in at least one battle over the EU.

[CMA]

He doesn't need to tie our hands, Obammy isn't going to do anything. He might, but I sincerely doubt it.