Discussion of PvP balance, anti-griefing, etc.

[Professor Fenway]

I say for the problem faced, we have cheap, easy-to-set up massive Shield Generators. They're simply too powerful to penetrate on their own (But big). For someone to destroy the complex, they must launch a ground assault and overtake the shield and blow it up. An automated computer-run defense system guards the complex (Also cheap and easy to set up), which will defend against ground invasion. When enemies are detected, an alert is sent to all online members of the faction/city, owners, etc, and those offline are alerted through a small client pop-up, if desired (This can be turned off). The automated defense system is enough to hold them off for a while while the defenders mobilize. This prevents instant PvP destruction and gives the defenders a chance to defend.

EDIT: Actually, I'll split this into content discussion.

[Iv121]

Before you get to this which I assume is base defence you should first decide if there are going to be any player bases. While I could agree on space ones somewhere not in the main hub areas I don't think having planetary bases is a good idea. About their defence I don't think that alerting people who are offline will make them log into the game just for this, sorry but they have lives. Best thing for you to do is to allow taking out static structures only in a specific time when most people could possibly go online. Finally that is one of the reasons I prefer to make people keep all their stuff on their ship because this way you won't have to worry about it while you are offline , it is always at hand with no need to go back and fourth when you want to upgrade and repair and in case it blows up I already suggested free recover (at least partial) because people are gonna die a lot.

Also there is no greifing in PvP - your task is actually destroy structures so there is no need in anti-greifing protection.

Again you have here a collision of two schools - one that says that everyone must be part of a huge faction and one that says that everyone is on their own but they might team up with their ships to do something - the idea I support, simply because as you will soon discover while going deeper into this issue there is simply too much stuff overlooked and unsolvable. You can't force people to log in and defend whenever someone attacks so it is pointless to notify . Best thing you could do is again specific times for those battles.

[joykler]

npcs
should be strong enough to endure
together with shields and turrets it should work fine

for the rest i like fenways idea because i think people will come if they are on minecraft
but people should have the option to shut it off

people should also be able to create easy hidable structures so not as hard as it is now to do it
blocks people can go thru without others seeing it
andso-on

[Iv121]

As I said it wont work - you can't force people go online. Instead I already suggested specific times for this - that is how diff games do it like WoT for example where teams hold daily fights for territory on a map and territory is only taken at specific times during the evening.

I mean rly someone attacks them in the morning while they are at work - do you really think they will respond ? I think work is more important. Additionally how you gonna do it ? Notify via Email ? I don't think people would like that plus Emails take time - they are not instant. IF you want something instant best choice is facebook but again they won't log in.

[Chairman_Tiel]

You can't force people online, but you certainly can provide an incentive for doing so as much as possible. Planetside 2, for instance.

In fact, I think most of the game mechanics should bear a strong resemblance to that of PS2, except without the stupid base shields (because declaring the enemy base a restricted area on which trespassing constitutes treason is the cornerstone of every successful military strategy), and much more boom boom. In place of certs (an ingame currency used to upgrade items in said game), the research system could be integrated into this; time spent online = research points that can be spent on new tech. Though, naturally, there'd be idlers, Futurecraft is not an MMO, though I'm confident using something like Bungee Cord or whatever the hell its name was would negate much of the issue there.

Now, before I go off on a tangent, this would encourage people to be online more often. That's good. Moving on, the issue of land protection and such is that everyone wants to be able to destroy that one bastard's base while not wanting to risk their own to unimpeded and often unwarranted devastation. At the same time, people like Iv don't want to have anything to do with other people and would feel pressured to join larger groups, such as in MMOs like...was it Land of Battlecraft? I can't remember. Anyhow, the easiest solution here would be to make defensive tech easier to acquire than weaponry to penetrate it. This was brought up in the past, and there's no real flaw with the concept. It would mean much more effort is taken to destroy installations than to adequately defend them. It'd also give the lone wolf player a lot more endurance against roving raiders, while guaranteeing that should players choose to make megafactions they're only at risk from other megafactions - not sole, persistent attackers. (otherwise known as 'griefers' in the traditional minecraft server context)

Still, some sort of clan-making function should be in the base game to streamline players working together. Small things like denying PVP within a faction, being able to set up shared resources, etcetera, would go a long way towards ensuring the spectacular battles we're all playing in our heads. So, if servers are going to be in the cloud, contributors of the hardware are going to want something to return, a place to have their community if they already have one. The answer? Give each owner whom joins up the power to create a 'nation' which players can join.

If every player starts out independent they can keep going solo if they choose, or join up with a nation and work with other people. Meanwhile, nation leaders can go to war with other nations or even merge with them. Within the cloud, a community isn't tied down to a single hunk of hardware, but rather can start on one world and expand naturally across the stars. All three divisions of the playerbase are happy.

[Iv121]

That balance stuff could work but I would still pair it with some sort of AI protecting people - to add more fun for the game - both protection and a challenge that pirates can actually overcome if played well or just being powerful. I don't like to force something or make something indestructible, rather even the odds but allow both sides a fair chance to win.

Also I'm not against player groups . This kind of play-style goes very well with groups of people teaming up to raid others, teaming up in a convoy to pass through infested territories full of those raiding parties, to be a mercenary group together protecting those convoys, or warriors fighting that invading alien force that I always dreamed of that gives a nice dynamic twist to gameplay ... I just want to make it more fluent and free - beneficial to the group yet never forced on anyone with people being able to live without it if they can't find a group.

[joykler]

i see one large hole in the better defense thing

sorry for the rest love the idea but little problem

we are playing minecraft
we want to create a server that will stay for months in a row [or would stay forever]
butt we already want to have alot of content
but when adding this idea
we need alteast 20 levels of weaponry and defense weaponry
and it would take 50 players about one or two months to reach the highest lvl
that means that when they have the highest lvl their base would be protected for life
because all defense mechanisms are better and cheaper then their antagonists

lets see for defense we would need
energy shielding
wall plating
reinforced stone [multiple types]
turrets
security control
guards
anti missle
anti aircraft
rocket launcher
anti nuke
air lock
stealth systems

well if we have alot of lvls for each of those we will have another very big part to do because only this is almost as large as whole of buildcraft
but you need this to create any form of enduring leveling


so i think we do need to look more to npcguards
better hiding
and stratagy because that defense over attack will work out for a month but not for longer [maybe make a system where one defense system works agains a certain attack

[҉]

The goal isn't to make a base that can defend itself against concentrated attack for a month. That would be ridiculous, insane, and stupid. The goal is to make a base that can't be instantly leveled while you aren't there. A couple ships should be enough to beat up a medium-sized base. I have no idea what you mean about needing twenty levels of defense.

[Chairman_Tiel]

That balance stuff could work but I would still pair it with some sort of AI protecting people - to add more fun for the game - both protection and a challenge that pirates can actually overcome if played well or just being powerful. I don't like to force something or make something indestructible, rather even the odds but allow both sides a fair chance to win.

Also I'm not against player groups . This kind of play-style goes very well with groups of people teaming up to raid others, teaming up in a convoy to pass through infested territories full of those raiding parties, to be a mercenary group together protecting those convoys, or warriors fighting that invading alien force that I always dreamed of that gives a nice dynamic twist to gameplay ... I just want to make it more fluent and free - beneficial to the group yet never forced on anyone with people being able to live without it if they can't find a group.

Adding AI would make life even harder on pirates...

[joykler]

if you want defence of the same level to be stronger and cheaper then attack
attack has to keep leveling to be able to win

but if you only have about 4 levels people will have that kind of tech in 2 weeks

no i think your defence without a player should withstand about a full day
ofcourse alot would be autopilot
and if defence and attack are equal this is

[҉]

You're taking the leveling comment too literally. There don't have to be clear, defined attack/defense technology levels in the way you seem to be thinking. Tech trees may produce a similar effect, but it becomes much more blurred given that 'base combat' probably represents dozens of tech trees, related to shield technology, missiles, generators, pretty much anything you can name that would have some bearing on an attack. The idea is just that, in general, defense is easier than offense.

[Iv121]

Adding AI would make life even harder on pirates...

Hey that's the point - you think it's point and grab ? Now you have guards to take care of - better hunt out of their way huh ? So to get to better areas you need to pass through those zones - means take big risk. Again that means they can hire mercenaries to escort them this distance or to risk sneaking alone on a fast ship (again depends on how heavily infested that areas is, there might be patrols from time to time), that means that the pirates need to come with more ships which gives you your group PvP, added through an in-game interface allowing you to join parties with similar interest such as a convoy or a raiding party. The loners will have to be either high lvl or quite agile to avoid being killed there alone but again there are better and worse protected zones. It is always possible to plot a course around but it will take you more time and fuel - crucial if you are on a delivery mission with time limit. That gives more challenge to both sides as well as fair chance (and yea more challenge is making the game harder, though in proportions -no need to go all crazy and make it painfully realistic or something)

[Chairman_Tiel]

This confuses me. You're saying "cater to the guy who isn't a social creature", which 80% of the time is going to be some form of independent raider, yet you want to make it tough as balls to get anything worthwhile out of it.

[Iv121]

Hey it is obvious that lone wolves are in disadvantage, they will always be, but I look at it just like inviting your friends for a BF squad - you can perfectly do with randoms, with friends, or without any sort of co-operation. It is obvious better co-operation means better results but it's not everything and you can live without it. Also I want to allow you to join random squads fluently in-game by just creating a temporary group with a common interest (the same raiders or convoys) that can part away whenever they want (like the thumping parties in firefall )

[joykler]

like the idea
but when i said guards i ment ground guards

but when travveling in convoy you can even help eachother reach base