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THATS how is American government.

HEALTH CARE! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

cmon health care is not that bad and in fact exists in most modern states, it just comes with a tax rise, learn how to share ppl ...

Iv121 wrote:cmon health care is not that bad and in fact exists in most modern states, it just comes with a tax rise, learn how to share ppl ...

I mean Obamacare specifically. They tax extra if you don't buy it, which is against the constitution. The government can't force you to buy something or penalize you if you haven't. It's tyranny. Plus people are having to change their doctors and health plans and the elderly are taxed more. Those are facts. If you want to hear some of the rumors then here's a popular one: death panels that decide whether an elderly person should continue to be cared for, or just killed.

Also, closing Guantanamo Bay, BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
pulling out of Afghanistan, BWAHAHAHAHA!
protecting the right to own weapons, BWAHAHAHAHA!

Sigh.

CommanderKobialka wrote:I mean Obamacare specifically. They tax extra if you don't buy it, which is against the constitution. The government can't force you to buy something or penalize you if you haven't. It's tyranny. Plus people are having to change their doctors and health plans and the elderly are taxed more. Those are facts. If you want to hear some of the rumors then here's a popular one: death panels that decide whether an elderly person should continue to be cared for, or just killed.

>They tax extra if you don't buy it
I'd rather say 'you generally have to pay more tax, but you get free healtcare if you want', which, btw, still leaves you more choice than Austria. Cause AFAIK, the point is that you have a public-funded healthcare system, meaning that either everyone has to pay or everyone gets it automatically, because otherwise there is no difference to private health insurance. Which is a system that doesn't work, because many people can't afford it.

>which is against the constitution
I don't know every single line of your constitution, so I can't really say much for or aginst that...

>It's tyranny
You just called 8/10 European countries (where people are actually very glad and happy they have public healthcare that work under the principle of everyone being required to have it) tyrannies. Congratulations.

>people are having to change their doctors and health plans
I don't know the details, but such changes sound pretty normal for an initiative that revamps the entire funding of healthcare.

>The elderly are taxed more
Okay, I don't really know about that and I do agree that that's pretty annoying.

About the rumors, I honestly am not sure about it. I have also heard the rumor that the Republican party forced Obama to turn the whole concept into shit (so they would let it pass) so the people who previously were for public healthcare are now against it and they could easily dismiss it later/ use its dismission for the next election/would not have to care about that subject for the next few decades afterwards.

MAN I ORDER YOU TO LIVE AND MAKE SURE YOU WILL HAVE INSURANCE IN CASE THERE IS SOMETHING THAT THREATENS YOUR WELL BEING SO THAT ONCE YOU REACH THE DAMN HOSPITAL YOU ARE NOT THROWN OUT COSUE YOU GOT NO MONEY !!! (I actually heard they do throw ppl out of hospitals if they got no money, understandable yet ugly in the same time, so indeed forcing you to take care of your own life is something good and has nothing to do with tyranny, it works the same here too and in many other countries again).

Also WTF is that death panel ? Elaborate because that rumor sounds stupid and counter-logical ...

Bottom line however is that you Americans take your "constitutional rights" and "freedoms" too far ...

Iv121 wrote:Bottom line however is that you Americans take your "constitutional rights" and "freedoms" too far ...

I do agree that the American understanding of 'Freedom' ranges between 'the highest priority of all', making equality and other issues horribly difficult to solve, to exaggurating freedom to a point where it borders to anarchy.

Ivan2006 wrote:

CommanderKobialka wrote:I mean Obamacare specifically. They tax extra if you don't buy it, which is against the constitution. The government can't force you to buy something or penalize you if you haven't. It's tyranny. Plus people are having to change their doctors and health plans and the elderly are taxed more. Those are facts. If you want to hear some of the rumors then here's a popular one: death panels that decide whether an elderly person should continue to be cared for, or just killed.

>They tax extra if you don't buy it
I'd rather say 'you generally have to pay more tax, but you get free healtcare if you want', which, btw, still leaves you more choice than Austria. Cause AFAIK, the point is that you have a public-funded healthcare system, meaning that either everyone has to pay or everyone gets it automatically, because otherwise there is no difference to private health insurance. Which is a system that doesn't work, because many people can't afford it.

>which is against the constitution
I don't know every single line of your constitution, so I can't really say much for or aginst that...

>It's tyranny
You just called 8/10 European countries (where people are actually very glad and happy they have public healthcare that work under the principle of everyone being required to have it) tyrannies. Congratulations.

>people are having to change their doctors and health plans
I don't know the details, but such changes sound pretty normal for an initiative that revamps the entire funding of healthcare.

>The elderly are taxed more
Okay, I don't really know about that and I do agree that that's pretty annoying.

About the rumors, I honestly am not sure about it. I have also heard the rumor that the Republican party forced Obama to turn the whole concept into shit (so they would let it pass) so the people who previously were for public healthcare are now against it and they could easily dismiss it later/ use its dismission for the next election/would not have to care about that subject for the next few decades afterwards.

>haven't read every line of the constitution.
well it is

>you just called 8/10 European Countries tyranny
Well people in America aren't used to that and won't accept it... at least... those of us who aren't spending all of our time looking at the latest Hollywood gossip... which is most of us... which is sad.

>changes sound normal
one of the biggest reasons people voted for it was that Obama said they could keep their doctors and plans.

>rumors

don't believe it. Probably anti Republican propaganda manufactured by democrats. The republicans do the same thing when they're in office. Obamacare was going to cost the country almost 100 billion dollars a year before the Republicans shut down the government to try and get rid of it. The fact that we almost hit the debt limit in October, and again on March 4 before they extended the limit again until March of next year, doesn't make that look too good.

IV: didn't say I believe the rumor. And forgive my response to being forced to buy something. Americans aren't used to it and we don't want to become used to it.

At least nobody is trying to take your * away.

?

IMO best form of healthcare is the NHS (U.K.) and Canadian / Australian / New Zealand etc. system, where everybody gets a slight tax rise (nothing too strenuous) but everyone and anyone gets healthcare.

Americans would probably be fine with it if they used this system, but [emphasis]as far as I understand it [/emphasis] they dun goofed it.

CommanderKobialka wrote:

Ivan2006 wrote:

CommanderKobialka wrote:I mean Obamacare specifically. They tax extra if you don't buy it, which is against the constitution. The government can't force you to buy something or penalize you if you haven't. It's tyranny. Plus people are having to change their doctors and health plans and the elderly are taxed more. Those are facts. If you want to hear some of the rumors then here's a popular one: death panels that decide whether an elderly person should continue to be cared for, or just killed.

>They tax extra if you don't buy it
I'd rather say 'you generally have to pay more tax, but you get free healtcare if you want', which, btw, still leaves you more choice than Austria. Cause AFAIK, the point is that you have a public-funded healthcare system, meaning that either everyone has to pay or everyone gets it automatically, because otherwise there is no difference to private health insurance. Which is a system that doesn't work, because many people can't afford it.

>which is against the constitution
I don't know every single line of your constitution, so I can't really say much for or aginst that...

>It's tyranny
You just called 8/10 European countries (where people are actually very glad and happy they have public healthcare that work under the principle of everyone being required to have it) tyrannies. Congratulations.

>people are having to change their doctors and health plans
I don't know the details, but such changes sound pretty normal for an initiative that revamps the entire funding of healthcare.

>The elderly are taxed more
Okay, I don't really know about that and I do agree that that's pretty annoying.

About the rumors, I honestly am not sure about it. I have also heard the rumor that the Republican party forced Obama to turn the whole concept into shit (so they would let it pass) so the people who previously were for public healthcare are now against it and they could easily dismiss it later/ use its dismission for the next election/would not have to care about that subject for the next few decades afterwards.

>haven't read every line of the constitution.
well it is

>you just called 8/10 European Countries tyranny
Well people in America aren't used to that and won't accept it... at least... those of us who aren't spending all of our time looking at the latest Hollywood gossip... which is most of us... which is sad.

>changes sound normal
one of the biggest reasons people voted for it was that Obama said they could keep their doctors and plans.

>rumors

don't believe it. Probably anti Republican propaganda manufactured by democrats. The republicans do the same thing when they're in office. Obamacare was going to cost the country almost 100 billion dollars a year before the Republicans shut down the government to try and get rid of it. The fact that we almost hit the debt limit in October, and again on March 4 before they extended the limit again until March of next year, doesn't make that look too good.

You know what? Let's say I don't know about the details of the health care plan enough to get any valid arguments out here, but there are multiple theories of mine:

1) The American freedom-centered capitalist culture is incompatible with public health care
2) Obamacare was poorly marketed and/or failed to find a way of smoothly switching between the old and new system
3) Obamacare is simply a bad example of a public health care system, which is propably as you said.

Liberty hurts.

Tau wrote:Liberty hurts.

That's why Europe is pretty much better in any measurable aspect than America on the exception of GDP per capita (which isn't really a sign of wealth if you look at the GINI-coefficient. Hell, America is worse than ANY European country there. And if oyu didn't know: GINI measures general inequality in terms of income)