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Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:22 am
by Ivan2006
ACH0225 wrote:I'd like to nominate myself as mod. To support my campaign, think about the other people and what they've done and stuff.
There are only two others who are being considered as alternative mods, namely CMA and myself.
What exactly have we done to be disqualified as mods?

CMA likes to point out he is a catholic (which I don't see as a valid reason) and admittedly had been used to Krautchan culture when he came back, but that one has worn off by now. He also doesn't get angry when people have an opinion that differs form his own, which, considering he is a catholic in a (mostly) atheist community seems pretty important.
As for me, I am a brony and insane. That basically means I am capable of relating to about 75% of all members directly. Doesn't sound very disqualifying to me.

Technically, your argument is invalid (in this universe at least).

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:56 am
by  ҉ 
Ivan2006 wrote:There are only two others who are being considered as alternative mods, namely CMA and myself.
What exactly have we done to be disqualified as mods?
I think this line best sums up everything that's wrong in this thread. You can't tell somebody they can't be nominated as a moderator.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:17 am
by ACH0225
Ivan2006 wrote:
ACH0225 wrote:I'd like to nominate myself as mod. To support my campaign, think about the other people and what they've done and stuff.
I am a brony
You are brony. I don't want this to turn into a brony site, and that's what would probably happen.

CMA would probably make this FutureKraut. Maybe.

Whereas I am merely an owl; I've also already been a mod and not wrecked everything.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:29 am
by Ivan2006
ACH0225 wrote:
Ivan2006 wrote:
ACH0225 wrote:I'd like to nominate myself as mod. To support my campaign, think about the other people and what they've done and stuff.
I am a brony
You are brony. I don't want this to turn into a brony site, and that's what would probably happen.

CMA would probably make this FutureKraut. Maybe.

Whereas I am merely an owl; I've also already been a mod and not wrecked everything.
->You do realize that I have never tried to force someone else to be brony, yes? So what makes you think I would if I became moderator?

->CMA won't make this FutureKraut, you know he has learnt the differences between our and Krautchan's community by now and I am pretty sure he would like this forum turning into a chan as little as you.

And yes, you are an owl, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, you are EXACTLY as reasonable a moderator as CMA or me. Which is my point, namely that you can't become moderator by trying to eliminate the competition. That won't work, because then no one on this forum would be qualified.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:10 am
by  ҉ 
Hrrr. I think I misunderstood Ivan's post. Look, everyone, if we're going to do this, why aren't we doing it the way we were doing it? You shouldn't be able to nominate yourself, at the very least.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:14 am
by Prototype
I'm not convinced we even need a second mod. It may not be my designated role but it is my job as well, Tau's too.
Currently our forum population is a bit small for us to need another mod, and as I understand it the circumstances that created this thread have been dealt with.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:30 am
by Iv121
Sorry proto, but as a dev you have no right to do moderating, only if you are also accepted as a mod separately, that is why I also don't get why you got any mod powers, that is something Tau must remove from you.

I really believe it is fine to have only one mod considering our size, as I said previously what we really must do is to appoint a judge.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:43 am
by Error
I also put forth, Iv, a query: what right do you have to give me an "exam"?

And the issue here is mainly the fact that I interpret the rules loosely, and enforce them in an unpopular manner. Instead of handing out officialmwarnings (of which you get 3) and bans (after the warnings) I simply lock topics and inform people they should do better next time.

If it is preferred, I will switch to warnings over locks.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:58 am
by Prototype
Iv121 wrote:Sorry proto, but as a dev you have no right to do moderating, only if you are also accepted as a mod separately, that is why I also don't get why you got any mod powers, that is something Tau must remove from you.

I really believe it is fine to have only one mod considering our size, as I said previously what we really must do is to appoint a judge.
If I hold power I hold responsibility, doesn't matter if its my task so long as I have access with that power I am responsible for its use. And sometimes inaction isn't a good idea, though that is rare.

Though I request to maintain mod powers in the development section if they are removed.

We also tried judges, do you remember how well that worked?

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:09 pm
by Iv121
We didn’t, as far as I remember there wasn't a judge at all on this forum even though I strongly advised for it. Plus lets admit it we had more incidents with the standard than my moderation system, its just a fact for one reason or another, we can try to point them out to see how to improve the system but for now it is best if we stick to mine, and mine requires a judge to truly make sure there is no power abuse of any sort or simply make sure the judgment given is fair, even a good mod can sometimes make a wrong choice, it doesn't make him bad but it does need to be account for , which is why the judge is here. OFC sometimes even that won't help for one reason or another, no system is perfect, but here I try to maximise the number of cases covered.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:18 pm
by Prototype
Iv121 wrote:We didn’t, as far as I remember there wasn't a judge at all on this forum even though I strongly advised for it. Plus lets admit it we had more incidents with the standard than my moderation system, its just a fact for one reason or another, we can try to point them out to see how to improve the system but for now it is best if we stick to mine, and mine requires a judge to truly make sure there is no power abuse of any sort or simply make sure the judgment given is fair, even a good mod can sometimes make a wrong choice, it doesn't make him bad but it does need to be account for , which is why the judge is here. OFC sometimes even that won't help for one reason or another, no system is perfect, but here I try to maximise the number of cases covered.
We did have judges, IIRC ACH was one, and Jedi.

And a mod needs to be able to do all that anyway, that's why they are a mod. We don't exactly need a judge to scrutinise everything, that just over complicates the matter, and doesn't add anything worthwhile.

Sure, we need to be able veto a bad decision, but that's what appeals are for, we don't exactly need specific judges when we have so few people its easy enough to judge the reaction of the majority. If that made any sense whatsoever. So in a sense we need judges, but that's the members as a whole, more of a Jury than a Judge.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:31 pm
by Iv121
Well gj you submit an appeal, to who exactly ? The mod ? The community perhaps ? Problem is that a judge needs to be a different entity from the mod or otherwise the verdict will be identical 80% of all times, the community cant act as a judge either because you know, sometimes the community is in the wrong, that’s why there is a mod to make sure they don't do bad stuff and populist votes will never be in his favor, that is why you make a 3rd party to oversee the process, again this is the prefect solution for most possible scenarios.

The judge can't decide anything himself so he cannot abuse his power, nor he can scrutinise anything because he can only react to appeals, he is simply a person that stays neutral to both parties, have a look at the arguments both parties provide, only the argument and nothing but them, and based on that he gives an objective decision. As the community is often an involved party in conflicts it cannot act as a judge or a jury, plus the jury system similar to the one used in the US has a lot (and I mean A LOT) of drawbacks.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:36 pm
by Prototype
Iv121 wrote:Well gj you submit an appeal, to who exactly ? The mod ? The community perhaps ? Problem is that a judge needs to be a different entity from the mod or otherwise the verdict will be identical 80% of all times, the community cant act as a judge either because you know, sometimes the community is in the wrong, that’s why there is a mod to make sure they don't do bad stuff and populist votes will never be in his favor, that is why you make a 3rd party to oversee the process, again this is the prefect solution for most possible scenarios.

The judge can't decide anything himself so he cannot abuse his power, nor he can scrutinise anything because he can only react to appeals, he is simply a person that stays neutral to both parties, have a look at the arguments both parties provide, only the argument and nothing but them, and based on that he gives an objective decision. As the community is often an involved party in conflicts it cannot act as a judge or a jury, plus the jury system similar to the one used in the US has a lot (and I mean A LOT) of drawbacks.
In this case if the community is wrong there's a very good chance the judge will also be wrong, just bear that in mind. Granted that can work, but I'm not sure about our case.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:39 pm
by Iv121
Eventually you can actually see the logical chain by which a judge provides his decision, he should be able to explain why the arguments presented for outweighed those against and the arguments that convinced him in the righteousness of one position or another. BTW that position doesn’t have to be only black and white, if the judge sees that both sides are right he can find a 3rd option. If that option is closer to the arguments for or against something is determined by how strong those arguments are, it all sounds complicated but in fact that is what we call rational thinking that you do every day when you need to decide one thing or another. That is why we search for a person with a generally good logical thinking. That is why I wonder if programmers are good judges, after all its a subject all about iron logic, Im looking at you Frost ! You could have been a great judge if you just had the guts to make decisions ! You run away from those moderation issues like plague ...

Other people can do it too, everyone can do it equally good, but it wont be equally easy for anyone. For me it is easy to think like that step by step, in theory again anyone can do it but he will have a harder time to apart with his personal opinions or feelings in favour of dry facts. OFC sometimes even the judge will fail to do it but hey yet again no system is perfect ... I believe however that in the overwhelming majority of cases the judge will do just fine, all he needs is to be self critical and examine each of his own steps in depth, trying to see where his motivation comes from, I also don't suggest releasing a verdict on the same day you read the case. You can also encourage both sides to bring more arguments if you see there is a point in doing that and that their arguments are inadequately weak. In your verdict you can also bring other points so long they are objective that you thought about, or share them prior to that with the others to let them reply to it.

Re: Requesting a second Moderator

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:43 pm
by Prototype
Iv121 wrote:Eventually you can actually see the logical chain by which a judge provides his decision, he should be able to explain why the arguments presented for outweighed those against and the arguments that convinced him in the righteousness of one position or another. BTW that position doesn’t have to be only black and white, if the judge sees that both sides are right he can find a 3rd option. If that option is closer to the arguments for or against something is determined by how strong those arguments are, it all sounds complicated but in fact that is what we call rational thinking that you do every day when you need to decide one thing or another. That is why we search for a person with a generally good logical thinking. That is why I wonder if programmers are good judges, after all its a subject all about iron logic, Im looking at you Frost ! You could have been a great judge if you just had the guts to make decisions ! You run away from those moderation issues like plague ...
But would we have a specific judge role or would it be done by another mod and or the admin?
Perhaps judging is part of the moderator role?