Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by Chairman_Tiel » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:13 am

Dr. Mackeroth wrote:I thought I already replied to this topic....


Anyway, I have a few points:

1- Cores shouldn't work like that. Cores should be energy-production units, ranging in power and fuels. They should have a constant output, that you consume with the devices aboard your ship. No weapon slots. This way, you can have a ship with more weapons and less engines, or one with more shields, or whatever. Also, this will mean that ship classifications are builder-dependent, and not universal.

Cores ARE energy production units, and they also allow you to control ships. And it was decided almost unanimously on the old forum that cores would scale up with size, it's my input that they should also be named to avoid confusing players. Universal > Builder decided, in this case. And I've thought through the slot system; it prevents ridiculous scenarios like a corvette managing to take out a cruiser because it has more guns. It would require little to no extra code and provide an incentive to upgrade, rather than just power alone. Slots is just the maximum amount of weapons a certain core class can mount safely before compromising the power supply.

Cores would be fed fuels like Strontium, Yttrium, and Crocite, and consume them to produce a 'charge', how long that takes (and by extension how much 'fuel' is consumed in the process) would depend on the class of the core. A Corvette core, for instance, would take far less time to reach optimum charge than say, a Battleship. From there different subsystems can be allocated amounts of power that reduce or increase their effectiveness. So it might be impractical to mount every type of logistical equipment on a lower tier ship, where all of them would be liabilities if anything else, but since they're nigh unlimited one could forgo a Medium weapon type in favor of an extra shield generator, etcetera. Without restricting weapons this system doesn't work.


2- I like the research ideas, but I distinctly remember writing "no crocite". Additionally, the cores shouldn't be a part of the research process, no matter how small. That's like using an anvil to cook things with, it just doesn't make sense. No, we need to be able to craft/use a separate method of research in the beginning.

That you did, but it can serve a purpose in the mod. It can always be renamed to something like Rubidium but I wanted to hearken back to the original MCF post. I've also been debating with Jedi about research for the past two pages, so I'm assuming you just couldn't be arsed to read that; the OP was modified to reflect the compromise we agreed on regarding NPC research facilities.

3- The shipyards are designed to make building easier, not harder. We want people to build ships easily, otherwise the game will be too hard. A shipyard should be able to take a design and build it much faster than a human, with no wasted costs.

That leads to ships being too easy to build, this provides a bit of challenge before one can set up a 100% error free shipyard and mass produce ships. Otherwise we end up with them becoming a triviality in the mod rather than the stars of it. And I disagree that it's too hard, if you want to automatically build s**t, you're gonna have to work for it. Take Madrealms; if ships were just made of wood, they'd be everywhere instead of being prized of an asset. They're the latter on that server because they require a resource - wool - that's extremely rare on the Skylands generator. As a result having a ship is an immense luxury, similar to shipyards.

4- Hangars. This idea will ruin the use of launch tubes, and is rather slightly physically impossible. The main restriction to the carrying capacity of a ship should be space available, not power. I think fighters should be crafted (with customizable colours (and perhaps weapons/armor later in development) to suit your style), then simply park within a carrier ship (assuming this is easy to code. If not, a simpler suggestion is welcome). There should also be "tracks" for fighters to run along inside ships, to avoid interior collisions. I have no idea how fighters should land, any suggestions are welcome.

Again, debated with Jedi. We ultimately decided that the ideal solution would be to have a 'fabricator' array that spawns fighters and the hangar module itself would power them and regulate whether they're NPCs or for player use. No one is going to craft twenty fighters for what essentially constitutes a temporary damage buff before they all get shot down. That would be, as you say, too hard. As far as parking is concerned, shield doors should significantly slow down entities, similar to cobwebs in vanilla minecraft. Starfighter NPCs would be able to find their way in and despawn once within a few blocks of an array.

5- Your suggestions for factions and sever-stuff are all feasible, however, I did want planets to have more internal cohesion, not split into several factions. That being said, the "pride" concept is one of merit, perhaps you might like to suggest it to the Bukkit Dev-Team for their faction plug-ins. I'd need to re-read this section before making any further judgement.

You can't force people into cohesion, at least not upfront. By using something similar to the Factions plugin initially (where my ideas come from), people will think they can do whatever they want when in reality they're going to end up merging with a larger faction when they figure out they're not the only people in space.
A nitpick: There is no Bukkit Dev-Team. There are independent developers, similar to the common Mod, whose forks of the Bukkit API are approved by the staff.

Also cats, yellow is my color, bugger off :/
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by  ҉  » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:09 am

Tiel wrote:
Dr. Mackeroth wrote:I thought I already replied to this topic....Again, debated with Jedi. We ultimately decided that the ideal solution would be to have a 'fabricator' array that spawns fighters and the hangar module itself would power them and regulate whether they're NPCs or for player use. No one is going to craft twenty fighters for what essentially constitutes a temporary damage buff before they all get shot down. That would be, as you say, too hard. As far as parking is concerned, shield doors should significantly slow down entities, similar to cobwebs in vanilla minecraft. Starfighter NPCs would be able to find their way in and despawn once within a few blocks of an array.
I don't want them to fly in and despawn. I wasn't them the fly into the hangar and land by a fuel pump so they'll be ready for the next battle.

Actually, that would be a good way of handling it. Somewhere near your fabricator you have to have some 'fighter bays', which consist of a fuel pump and tank and a smaller fabricator. After a battle, surviving fighters land there to refuel and be healed by the smaller fabricator, which manufactures whatever parts have been damaged. The number of fighter bays determines how many fighters your ship can carry, and fighters are stored there when not in combat. That way the fabricator doesn't just produce thousands of fighters—it compares the number assigned to the ship with the number of fighter bays and manufactures more if needed. It's not just a spawner, though—you do have to give it metal and other resources to make it work. Same for the fighter bays. They'll refuel and heal fighters as long as they have iron and fuel in stock.

EDIT: Just realized that that would also let you differentiate between a carrier and a transport, which I think is really cool. You could load hundreds of fighters onto a freighter if you're just shoving them in a hold somewhere, but they wouldn't be able to do anything from the freighter because the haven't got any fighter bays—they're just sitting in a room somewhere. It allows for great mechanics like moving shiploads of deactivated fighters, which I think would be awesome. :D
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by joykler » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:21 am

could you then also implement an new piece of upgrade
the black veil
its an upgrade of the cloacing device but this one [supplied with enormous amounts of power] would creates a large sphere that would be dark ass hell and render sensor equipment useless this way people could take an whole fleet in its orb and nobody could see them
and if an enemy flies into it he would be blinded. a ship with this equipment could fly into a battle with tons of ships and make them blind while firing by doing so making them shoot there owns.

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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by Chairman_Tiel » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:21 am

Last_Jedi_Standing wrote:
Tiel wrote:
Dr. Mackeroth wrote:I thought I already replied to this topic....Again, debated with Jedi. We ultimately decided that the ideal solution would be to have a 'fabricator' array that spawns fighters and the hangar module itself would power them and regulate whether they're NPCs or for player use. No one is going to craft twenty fighters for what essentially constitutes a temporary damage buff before they all get shot down. That would be, as you say, too hard. As far as parking is concerned, shield doors should significantly slow down entities, similar to cobwebs in vanilla minecraft. Starfighter NPCs would be able to find their way in and despawn once within a few blocks of an array.
I don't want them to fly in and despawn. I wasn't them the fly into the hangar and land by a fuel pump so they'll be ready for the next battle.

Actually, that would be a good way of handling it. Somewhere near your fabricator you have to have some 'fighter bays', which consist of a fuel pump and tank and a smaller fabricator. After a battle, surviving fighters land there to refuel and be healed by the smaller fabricator, which manufactures whatever parts have been damaged. The number of fighter bays determines how many fighters your ship can carry, and fighters are stored there when not in combat. That way the fabricator doesn't just produce thousands of fighters—it compares the number assigned to the ship with the number of fighter bays and manufactures more if needed. It's not just a spawner, though—you do have to give it metal and other resources to make it work. Same for the fighter bays. They'll refuel and heal fighters as long as they have iron and fuel in stock.

EDIT: Just realized that that would also let you differentiate between a carrier and a transport, which I think is really cool. You could load hundreds of fighters onto a freighter if you're just shoving them in a hold somewhere, but they wouldn't be able to do anything from the freighter because the haven't got any fighter bays—they're just sitting in a room somewhere. It allows for great mechanics like moving shiploads of deactivated fighters, which I think would be awesome. :D
Interesting, so it would be like the Protoss Carriers in Starcraft?

I'm not sure about metal and stuff. I think everything on ships should revolve around power for streamlined gameplay, if it's all the same to you.
joykler wrote: could you then also implement an new piece of upgrade
the black veil
its an upgrade of the cloacing device but this one [supplied with enormous amounts of power] would creates a large sphere that would be dark arse hell and render sensor equipment useless this way people could take an whole fleet in its orb and nobody could see them
and if an enemy flies into it he would be blinded. a ship with this equipment could fly into a battle with tons of ships and make them blind while firing by doing so making them shoot there owns.
That'll definitely come in handy when I work up the motivation to work on the tech trees for each piece of equipment, thanks ^-^

Just as a sidenote, this thread is basically my attempt at creating an up-to-date comprehensive outline for the mod. I can't guarantee everything I put in here will be considered by the devs, but I'll modify it with the community's general consensus on proposed elements of futurecraft in this subforum.
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by  ҉  » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:43 am

Tiel wrote:
Last_Jedi_Standing wrote:I don't want them to fly in and despawn. I wasn't them the fly into the hangar and land by a fuel pump so they'll be ready for the next battle.

Actually, that would be a good way of handling it. Somewhere near your fabricator you have to have some 'fighter bays', which consist of a fuel pump and tank and a smaller fabricator. After a battle, surviving fighters land there to refuel and be healed by the smaller fabricator, which manufactures whatever parts have been damaged. The number of fighter bays determines how many fighters your ship can carry, and fighters are stored there when not in combat. That way the fabricator doesn't just produce thousands of fighters—it compares the number assigned to the ship with the number of fighter bays and manufactures more if needed. It's not just a spawner, though—you do have to give it metal and other resources to make it work. Same for the fighter bays. They'll refuel and heal fighters as long as they have iron and fuel in stock.

EDIT: Just realized that that would also let you differentiate between a carrier and a transport, which I think is really cool. You could load hundreds of fighters onto a freighter if you're just shoving them in a hold somewhere, but they wouldn't be able to do anything from the freighter because the haven't got any fighter bays—they're just sitting in a room somewhere. It allows for great mechanics like moving shiploads of deactivated fighters, which I think would be awesome. :D
Interesting, so it would be like the Protoss Carriers in Starcraft?

I'm not sure about metal and stuff. I think everything on ships should revolve around power for streamlined gameplay, if it's all the same to you.
No idea. I dunno what Protoss Carriers are like, so maybe. :tongue:

Hmm. It would make more sense to put actual metal into the fighter bays to repair the fighters, but you could say that since it's a much smaller scale (just replacing damaged parts rather than fabricating an entire strike craft) the bay itself can create the parts required out of pure energy. I like the idea of having to carry spare parts for your fighters on-board, but I understand why that might not be practical. I think manufacturing new fighters should definitely require metal, though.

Also, what about ammunition? That could presumably be supplied by the fighter bays just like fuel, and laser weapons would just be recharged, but physical ammunition (missiles and such) would have to be replenished as well, and it would make less sense for the fighter bay to also act as a missile manufacturing facility. You're already going to have to keep the bays stocked with fuel and ammunition, so it would be easy enough to drop a block of iron in occasionally as well. A cubic meter of iron would go a long way towards repairing a small fighter unless it was *extremely* damaged.
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by Chairman_Tiel » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:18 pm

Protoss Carriers are basically flying barracks, the player queues up interceptors to be built up to the carrier's limit, and they are stored inside it until you order it to attack something, at which point they'll return if/when the task is completed to the safe confines of the starship.

I dunno about ammunition. Is it necessary?
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by  ҉  » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:38 pm

Tiel wrote:Protoss Carriers are basically flying barracks, the player queues up interceptors to be built up to the carrier's limit, and they are stored inside it until you order it to attack something, at which point they'll return if/when the task is completed to the safe confines of the starship.
Something like that. It would be cool to be able to move fighters to different ships, though. A fighter bay should require much less space and power than a full fabricator, so you could carry a few on ships too small to be full carriers.
Tiel wrote:I dunno about ammunition. Is it necessary?
Well, not having infinite missiles would be nice. :P
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by Chairman_Tiel » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:44 pm

Just missiles, then, perhaps?

Kinetic weapons could be converting energy to bullets from the core, or something like that. It's a really big pain the bottom to load weapons up in Flan's mod.
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by Iv121 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:19 pm

Well you can supply materials and energy from the core to run an on board munitions factory, but it is imperative that the ballistic weapons remain ammo dependent. It is part of their character - Imagine yourself shooting freaking anti-matter torpedoes every ten seconds...
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by joykler » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:39 pm

i like all these ideas butt if you check this you will see that the required energy is raising by the second
that would mean acarrier core has such a large amount of energy that ,with diffrent weapons it would be overpowered i suggest adding extra generators for this purpose with possible coolant systems like the ones in industrial craft this way only vessels that big can be a carrier

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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by  ҉  » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:26 pm

Tiel wrote:Just missiles, then, perhaps?

Kinetic weapons could be converting energy to bullets from the core, or something like that. It's a really big pain the bottom to load weapons up in Flan's mod.
I think the way Flan's mod does it could be improved upon. Rather than loading bullets into a plane's inventory, which doesn't make a ton of sense, you load them (lots of them) into a fighter bay and it will fill up any fighter that's there until the fighter is fully reloaded. If there are more, then there are more, and they're stored in the fighter bay with the fuel and other stuff. Missiles work the same way. You load a bunch of them into the bay and it gives them to the fighter. Before a battle the captain could issue a command to load fighters with, say, heat-seeking missiles, at which point any fighter bays that had heat-seeking missiles in stock would equip their fighter with those.

On a related note, some kind of loader droid to restock fighter bays would be nice, and probably not too hard to make. Instead of the player restocking each individual fighter bay, he'd put all the stuff in a central repository and then the droid would distribute it equally amongst the bays. The droid wouldn't actually have to do anything but walk near the bays; realistically the supplies could just disappear from the repository and appear in various bays around the ship.
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by Chairman_Tiel » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:30 pm

Iv121 wrote:Well you can supply materials and energy from the core to run an on board munitions factory, but it is imperative that the ballistic weapons remain ammo dependent. It is part of their character - Imagine yourself shooting freaking anti-matter torpedoes every ten seconds...
I said that torpedoes and missiles could be ammo dependent if that route is taken, but honestly the way Freelancer does it is really good, loading up ammo in 500 packet increments is just an unnecessary hassle. We don't need to sharpen our swords all the time in vanilla Minecraft, do we? Have a certain amount of hits before it needs to recharge? Again, inconvenience that only disrupts gameplay.
joykler wrote:i like all these ideas butt if you check this you will see that the required energy is raising by the second
that would mean acarrier core has such a large amount of energy that ,with diffrent weapons it would be overpowered i suggest adding extra generators for this purpose with possible coolant systems like the ones in industrial craft this way only vessels that big can be a carrier
There isn't a carrier core, and I'm sorry if I accidentally fostered that misconception.

There are Corvette, Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, Battleship, and Dreadnought cores.

Equipment is handled in generic 'modules' that when installed draw power from the core when activated via a Console block. Putting fuel in the Core will gradually charge it up to 100%, at which point it will continue to consume items you put in to maintain that. This is the optimum state, as you then have the maximum power your core can output and allocations will be most effective.

Hangar modules are just one of a long list, and when active they do whatever action we eventually degree on (people have different views on how it will produce space jets) but also consume a massive amount of power as well to the point where having it active will actually DECREASE the amount of power available to your other subsystems at a steady rate. It also occupies a Heavy Weapon slot, so it can only be mounted on Battleships or higher, which while having a healthy amount of power, in combination with logistical systems like armor and shields a heavily armed carrier would find itself dead in space very fast, or at the very least consuming enough fuel for a cruiser fleet.

To be honest, that's something that also needs to be decided. I'd really like it to be something like hunger saturation where different fuels will give you more protection against this type of 'overdrawing' behavior, along with the traditional 'coal vs planks' mechanic.

As I might be misunderstanding you here, I'll present an answer to the other question you might be asking, that an effective carrier would be nearly impossible with that kind of power drain. That would depend on your definition of 'effective'; I was trying to make it so that the kind of carrier that can unleash swarms of starfighters would also be tick-poor in frontline combat if not protected adequately. But, something you might've missed in the OP are the Auxilliary Power Generators, as the name would imply they basically give you more power, but in turn they occupy a weapon slot depending on what type the generator is (ie, a light generator would mean one less light gun on your ship, while we're on the subject of carriers I'd like to point out that light guns should make utter mincemeat of starfighters)

These can also be deployed on the ground and used to power 'spaceship' modules in place of a Core to create pretty 1337 bases.
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Re: Idear(s) <TEXTWALL WARNING>

Post by Chairman_Tiel » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:46 pm

Last_Jedi_Standing wrote:
Tiel wrote:Just missiles, then, perhaps?

Kinetic weapons could be converting energy to bullets from the core, or something like that. It's a really big pain the bottom to load weapons up in Flan's mod.
I think the way Flan's mod does it could be improved upon. Rather than loading bullets into a plane's inventory, which doesn't make a ton of sense, you load them (lots of them) into a fighter bay and it will fill up any fighter that's there until the fighter is fully reloaded. If there are more, then there are more, and they're stored in the fighter bay with the fuel and other stuff. Missiles work the same way. You load a bunch of them into the bay and it gives them to the fighter. Before a battle the captain could issue a command to load fighters with, say, heat-seeking missiles, at which point any fighter bays that had heat-seeking missiles in stock would equip their fighter with those.

On a related note, some kind of loader droid to restock fighter bays would be nice, and probably not too hard to make. Instead of the player restocking each individual fighter bay, he'd put all the stuff in a central repository and then the droid would distribute it equally amongst the bays. The droid wouldn't actually have to do anything but walk near the bays; realistically the supplies could just disappear from the repository and appear in various bays around the ship.
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But, what's the system here, again?

From what I understand, we have the Fabricator array that's basically special blocks in a certain shape (oo, maybe the Constructor blocks from Shipyards?) for making fighters that get their energy from the Hangar module, which in turn draws exorbitant amounts of power from the Core depending on how many arrays it detects.

Then, you said that instead of despawning it would be cool if there were a sort of contraption to incentivize creating efficient hangar bays, and Fabricators would basically create more ships based on the fighters currently in them. Okay, perhaps the setup would be to have a Fabricator inside a bay to immediately reinforce your squadrons, or make them in the first place. The only question would be how to define a 'Bay' in the first place. I'd hate to make this more complex than it needs to be by suggesting a whole new block that won't have use outside of launching starfighter squadrons.

I can, however, see the applications of ammunition here now. That seems like a good idea, but it would be nice if this could be shared, as in, 3 types of ammuniton (missile, slugs, plasma) that are also compatible with Light turrets on ships, and then sets of ammunitions exclusively for each weapon tier (medium, heavy, advanced). But, that's a whole new can of beans entirely. I'd appreciate you explaining your conceptualization of this whole deal first, if it's all the same to you c:
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