RP reset: psionics

[cats]

It doesn't matter much for empire RPs and it doesn't matter how well it works in a game. The discussion has very little bearing on ERPs.

[ACH0225]

Shouldn't it be tailored for ERPs, seeing as they are the most important/most participated RPs?

[Chairman_Tiel]

If you design a system around any element it will be all but functionally useless when addressing anything beyond that. Seeing as the current crop of ERPs aren't canon, anyhow, the ideal approach then would be to avoid narrowing the focus of the mechanics to any particular niche and instead do what is best for the universe overall. I don't think many of you realize how much our lore pales in comparison to many other independent works out there...I would strongly advise against taking up the obstinate mentality that cockblocked progress a few weeks back if you truly want the fcverse to rise above its current status.

[cats]

Least of all ERPs. They're about greater ends, not means. Movement of ships and troops, production, etc. The abilities of individuals are hardly relevant, why attempt to scale something up to tailor to the game in which the workings of the concept don't need to be written? "Because they're popular" isn't a good reason. They're only popular because they're still viewed as a game and don't require much effort to write an entry.

[Ivan2006]

@Catsonmeth Please do not put emphasis on what psionics ARE. Because that is not even decided at this point, which is why this thread even exists in the first place, to sort out differences in our opinion.

Anyway, catsonmeth, it appears that we have a vastly different idea of psionics.
And the concept of "subspace" is not set in stone either AFAIK, it is clear that there's a lot of energy, but from what I could tell there is nothing that speaks against a) psionic energy being its own type of energy and b) part of the energy in subspace being psionic.
This is MY proposal to psionics.
You can go with that or agree on a better idea.
Again, my point is that as soon as we get to the point where psionics are mechanically used, we get psionic tech acting differently depending on how we define psionics. I think what we can agree on is that we need rules to psionics to avoid a) people using psionics to arsepull random tech and b) having a heated argument about what psionics can or can not do.
And we have to avoid people from making "magic power x" a psionic ability. While some "magic powers" would likely be replicable by psionics, no matter how we make them, we need a clear outline of what is possible with psionics.
My idea on psionic energy being its own type of energy is even backed up by science: There is an experiment where one person played the violin and another person, completely seperated with from any type of connection, including EM waves, started showing the same brain activity as the violin player. This makes it scientifically plausible that the "connection" between human brains is not transmitted by means of any known type of energy. However, energy is neccessarily required to transmit information, therefore it is plausible that a seperate type of energy exists, which, in my case would emitt EM waves in realspace (due to instability, as it is native to subspace), providing a connection to the also scientifically observed "Aura" phenomenon (humans emitting small quantities of visible light, been measured in a dark room). Of course, small EM fields would be emitted by human brains due to electric activity, but being a lot of small sources in the brain, they would mostly cancel each other out, not to mention that EM field would not emitt signs of chemical activity in the brain, useful interaction using that would be pretty much impossible..

On the topic of the whole "force of nature"-debate:
Okay, it propably is not a force of nature acting like Gravity, electromagnetism or the nuclear forces.
However, two things: One, Physics can not prove that there are no other, technically scientifically explainable, forces other than the currently known. Two, in my model, psionics is native to subspace and only ever enter realspace through psionic nodes in a controlled form. Question yourself, would you call the force exerted by an electromagnet in a coilgun on the projectile a "force of nature"? Propably not. Yet electromagnetism is a force of nature, it is just in a controlled and artificially created form. The term "force of nature" mainly means that it has a direct effect on the particles themselves. Whether psionics is controlled subspace energy or the means of controllign said energy would be a matter of definition of the word. This is why I am talking about "psionic energy" instead of psionics, as that would be the means of control. Psionic energy is the energy being controlled to have an effect on the environment. You need some kind of scientifically sensible interaction and psionic energy applying directed kinetic energy to objects on a sub-molecular level is honestly the best idea I can come up with.
For the necessity of psionics being responsible for "paranormal activity", the combination of a)psionic energy in subspace, b)psionic nodes being a connector allowing for that energy to influence realspace and c)psionic nodes being present in any human, is what creates the census as well, making it unneccessary to view it as a "force of nature".

On energy sources you wrote this:

The other issue is the energy source and means to broadcast the energy over distances. The energy could come from the organism itself. The average human takes in about 2000 kilocalories per day, which is about 2 KG TNT energy equivalent. Metabolism could be heightened by the wetware and used to feed it. Devices could also be used to gather ambient energy and store it, or just create their own. Interdimensional energy might also be a source, but only in the far-future.

I personally do not like the concept of the energy being produced by the psionically capable individual. I think that would require an overly complex mechanism that could not be reliably replicated by technology. Keep in mind that "psionic nodes drawing power fron subspace" would not be OP, as every node only allows a certain ammount of energy through, which would quickly dissipate and be quite hard to store, so an average psionic won't be capable of much beyond telepathy without technological or genetical aid. Psionic technology would operate by artificially maintaining a psionic node. Creating such an artificial psionic node would work by one of two means: a) focusing a lot of ambient psionic energy on a suitable "carrier" and mimicking the mechanism in the brain, hoping to cause a reaction and open a node. This method can only create limited ammounts of energy, for example a single psionic ship-to-ship weapon would require about 10 of those carriers. b) dimensional manipulation, would propably only become feasible in the far-future as described in your model. It would allow to create much larger nodes. This type would however be required to construct psionic subspace drives (note: change of plans, my faction will not start into the galaxy with psi-FTL. psi-FTL would only be developed much later, around the same time as regular subspace drives, due to the requirement of dimensional subspace manipulation being already available).

[Crash Override]

@Catsonmeth Please do not put emphasis on what psionics ARE. Because that is not even decided at this point, which is why this thread even exists in the first place, to sort out differences in our opinion.

Anyway, catsonmeth, it appears that we have a vastly different idea of psionics.
And the concept of "subspace" is not set in stone either AFAIK, it is clear that there's a lot of energy, but from what I could tell there is nothing that speaks against a) psionic energy being its own type of energy and b) part of the energy in subspace being psionic.
This is MY proposal to psionics.
You can go with that or agree on a better idea.
Again, my point is that as soon as we get to the point where psionics are mechanically used, we get psionic tech acting differently depending on how we define psionics. I think what we can agree on is that we need rules to psionics to avoid a) people using psionics to arsepull random tech and b) having a heated argument about what psionics can or can not do.
And we have to avoid people from making "magic power x" a psionic ability. While some "magic powers" would likely be replicable by psionics, no matter how we make them, we need a clear outline of what is possible with psionics.
My idea on psionic energy being its own type of energy is even backed up by science: There is an experiment where one person played the violin and another person, completely seperated with from any type of connection, including EM waves, started showing the same brain activity as the violin player. This makes it scientifically plausible that the "connection" between human brains is not transmitted by means of any known type of energy. However, energy is neccessarily required to transmit information, therefore it is plausible that a seperate type of energy exists, which, in my case would emitt EM waves in realspace (due to instability, as it is native to subspace), providing a connection to the also scientifically observed "Aura" phenomenon (humans emitting small quantities of visible light, been measured in a dark room). Of course, small EM fields would be emitted by human brains due to electric activity, but being a lot of small sources in the brain, they would mostly cancel each other out, not to mention that EM field would not emitt signs of chemical activity in the brain, useful interaction using that would be pretty much impossible..

On the topic of the whole "force of nature"-debate:
Okay, it propably is not a force of nature acting like Gravity, electromagnetism or the nuclear forces.
However, two things: One, Physics can not prove that there are no other, technically scientifically explainable, forces other than the currently known. Two, in my model, psionics is native to subspace and only ever enter realspace through psionic nodes in a controlled form. Question yourself, would you call the force exerted by an electromagnet in a coilgun on the projectile a "force of nature"? Propably not. Yet electromagnetism is a force of nature, it is just in a controlled and artificially created form. The term "force of nature" mainly means that it has a direct effect on the particles themselves. Whether psionics is controlled subspace energy or the means of controllign said energy would be a matter of definition of the word. This is why I am talking about "psionic energy" instead of psionics, as that would be the means of control. Psionic energy is the energy being controlled to have an effect on the environment. You need some kind of scientifically sensible interaction and psionic energy applying directed kinetic energy to objects on a sub-molecular level is honestly the best idea I can come up with.
For the necessity of psionics being responsible for "paranormal activity", the combination of a)psionic energy in subspace, b)psionic nodes being a connector allowing for that energy to influence realspace and c)psionic nodes being present in any human, is what creates the census as well, making it unneccessary to view it as a "force of nature".

On energy sources you wrote this:

The other issue is the energy source and means to broadcast the energy over distances. The energy could come from the organism itself. The average human takes in about 2000 kilocalories per day, which is about 2 KG TNT energy equivalent. Metabolism could be heightened by the wetware and used to feed it. Devices could also be used to gather ambient energy and store it, or just create their own. Interdimensional energy might also be a source, but only in the far-future.

I personally do not like the concept of the energy being produced by the psionically capable individual. I think that would require an overly complex mechanism that could not be reliably replicated by technology. Keep in mind that "psionic nodes drawing power fron subspace" would not be OP, as every node only allows a certain ammount of energy through, which would quickly dissipate and be quite hard to store, so an average psionic won't be capable of much beyond telepathy without technological or genetical aid. Psionic technology would operate by artificially maintaining a psionic node. Creating such an artificial psionic node would work by one of two means: a) focusing a lot of ambient psionic energy on a suitable "carrier" and mimicking the mechanism in the brain, hoping to cause a reaction and open a node. This method can only create limited ammounts of energy, for example a single psionic ship-to-ship weapon would require about 10 of those carriers. b) dimensional manipulation, would propably only become feasible in the far-future as described in your model. It would allow to create much larger nodes. This type would however be required to construct psionic subspace drives (note: change of plans, my faction will not start into the galaxy with psi-FTL. psi-FTL would only be developed much later, around the same time as regular subspace drives, due to the requirement of dimensional subspace manipulation being already available).

The limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

[Ivan2006]

The limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

That sounds like something Miranda would quote.

[Crash Override]

The limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

That sounds like something Miranda would quote.

Yes,it is.

Also,a message about planet busters

Spoiler:

Lets get this out of the way right now. Yes, you can blow up a planet with energy: all you have to do is supply enough power to overcome the binding energy of said planet (the force keeping it together), otherwise gravity just pulls it all back together.

Death Star energy weapon

So how much is that for, say, the Earth? 2e32 Joules. That’s a 2 followed by 32 zeros, or 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Or, to put it in a way that makes more sense, start gathering 1 megaton hydrogen bombs. When you have 57 quadrillion of them, you can blow up the planet. What does 57 quadrillion look like? That’s 5.7e16, or 57,000,000,000,000,000 bombs. Right now the whole nuclear arsenal of Earth is about 100,000 megatons, so you have your work cut out for you.

The limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

[Ivan2006]

So what you're saying is that if stuff is awesome, people won't care if it's realistic?
You can argue that out with the board of GMs.
According to them, everything needs an explanation.
I am just trying to supply a good explanation for psionics here.
Unless it wasn't a critique, in which case I have no idea what it would be, so sorry then.

[Crash Override]

No i was just reading stuff about sci-fi,its not critique

It was supposed to be funny,nevermind then

[Shadowcatbot]

Space magic.

[cats]

Psionics is a word that's already defined. Subspace has been in place since the FTL thread months ago. We aren't going to add another kind of fundamental energy. You're literally proposing that we add magic and trying to turn a defined generality into a specification. It's like someone saying that their specialization is all FTL then inventing a magical force that makes things go past c and saying that all other FTL doesn't exist.

The electromagnetic force exerted on a thing by an electromagnet is electromagnetic.

We aren't Star Wars and we won't use retarded physics to make our universe because it's "cool."

[Ivan2006]

Catsonmeth, would you kindly link me to the definition of psionics you are using here?
Because it seems I don't happen to know it.

[cats]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psionics

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Psionics

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/de ... sh/psionic

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/psionic

Psionics
Psionics is an umbrella term used by parapsychologists to describe psychic abilities such as telepathy, psychokinesis, pyrokinesis and others.

[Ivan2006]

Have a detailed description as to why none of your posted sources make other forms of psionics neccessary by defimnition.

Spoiler:

Relating to or denoting the practical use of psychic powers or paranormal phenomena

So I could just say I go for Oxford's definition of "psionics", after all that is more or less the primary institution for the english language.
It would mostly indicate that psychic powers are being used and/or phenomena otherwise described as "paranormal" being harnessed to be of use. No indication of there being several types of psionics whatsoever.
But I'll look at the others, too, to give your definiton a fair chance.

Psionics is an umbrella term used by parapsychologists to describe psychic abilities such as telepathy, psychokinesis, pyrokinesis and others.

This is basically what you quoted.
Note that in this, psionics is an umbrella term for psychic ABILITIES. While it states there being different psychic abilities, it does not state that those abilities may not originate from the same source, which is what I have been writing about, so your argument that "due to definition, your stuff can not be everything" only applies with limits. It is POSSIBLE there are other means of psychic interaction, but not neccessary due to the definition.

The user have some form of psychic ability by using the mind to induce paranormal phenomena.

This doesn't actually mean anything to the argument, however, the extensive list of variations might be of relevance.
However, after reading through it, I could not find anything that would not be covered by my model, does also fit Wikipedia's and Oxford's definition of psionics and would still be outside of what we generally consider as "OP". Examples: emotion manipulation would already be possible, body language analysis does not fit the Oxford/Wikipedia requirements of the supernatural and precognition would just be horribly overpowered for anyone to have.

pertaining to the telepathic, psychic, or paranormal

This is pretty much the entire entry, pretty much what has already been established.
Nothing to add here.

Essentially, yes, there can be other things that may be psionic, even if we only use the cross-section of all 4 definitions as psionics.
However, there is no need for that. My thing pretty much fills that cross-section entirely, and as I wrote in the Spoiler, even Wikipedia states that it just refers to a collection of abilities that without the connection by psionics would be viewed as independent from each other. aka psionic abilities. We do not violate this definition if we decide that the primary criteria for an ability to be psionic is that it functions on the basis of psionic energy. Because what psionic abilities there are is still largely the buiseness of the universe you apply this to.

And I would also make a clearification: My faction would not be specialized in psionics as in they are the only ones who have it.
The idea is that we propably are the most advanced in terms of technological applications for psionics and that we have a higher rate of psionics in the population than other factions.

On the electromagnet example, you may not have gotten the point: the psionic force exerted on an object that makes it levitate in the case of psionic levitation would be exactly as much a force of nature as the electromagnetic force exerted by an electromagnet.

I agree that we are not Star Wars. That is why I tried to make a somewhat scientific explanation to Psionics.
Because in all honesty, you will have trouble making an explanation as to how psionics work and not even have it sounding a bit like the Force from SW, simply because the general idea of the Force gets pretty close to what most members here have as a general idea on what psionics are.
I have also included several limitations to how psionics can be applied without them seeming artificial, as they are implemented in the basic principles.
Remember, as in every science, you get your basic principles and aéverythign else just turns out to be application of those principles.
So I don't really see where "retarded physics" were used in my description.
You can have our quantum physicist Fenway double-check my stuff if he finds any "retarded" contents that need ironing, but unless you actually have any valid reason to call BS on my thing other than "I don't like it" and do not have a better idea (which should propably be accurate enough to not break your other rule of "give an explanation to every tech" for technical applications of psionics, such as a "just roll with it"-system would do, since that way no one knows how to write psionic tech because we don't have any clear rules for psionics, which would end up with a very large mess, in the early 4th millenium, if not earlier, as at that time, everyone would have functioning psionics, all working on their user's private view on the topic), please stop trying to shoot down my psionics.
You can continue bringing up issues, and I will continue taking them down.